Los Angeles Times Interview : Avraham Burg

WASHINGTON â€”  Avraham Burg, 41, is one of the most popular political figures in Israel. Four years ago, before Israel’s last election, he was the third-leading vote getter among Labor Party faithful, trailing only the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and his successor, Shimon Peres. But when the wheeling and dealing necessary to cobble together an Israeli government left him without a ministerial portfolio, Burg bolted from parliament to run the Jewish Agency for Israel.

The Jewish Agency’s history is entwined with that of Israel. Created in 1929 during the British Mandate, it became a government-in-waiting for the new state. After independence, the organization served as a nongovernmental agency operating where formal Israeli representation would or could not. Its most recent achievements include the establishment of a vast network to aid the emigration of more than a half-million Jews from the former Soviet Union. To finance its operations, the Jewish Agency raises hundreds of millions of dollars a year from Jewish communities around the world.

But within Israel, the Jewish Agency has something less than a sterling reputation. Labeled anachronistic or just inefficient, its image is the antithesis of the one projected by the brash, energetic Burg, a youthful father of four.

Still, it offers Burg a national forum. As chairman, he ranks fourth in protocol in Israel--after the president, prime minister and speaker of the parliament. And Burg knows firsthand the perks of being part of the Israeli establishment. His father, Josef Burg, was for nearly four decades the leader of the National Religious Party, a conservative force in Israeli politics. As an indispensable coalition partner, the elder Burg held an unbroken string of Cabinet posts.

The son diverts from his father in many important ways--both in style and substance. His politics are decidedly left-of-center: He first came to national prominence as an outspoken opponent of Israel’s war in Lebanon. He is also a quintessential modern Israeli, from his laptop computer to his vegetarianism and long distance running. But in one very important way, he is his father’s son: Avraham Burg is a very religious man. The most overt display is his wearing of the skullcap, or yarmulke, of the observant.

This conversation took place during a brief stop over Burg made in New York, on his way home from a Jewish Agency-sponsored tour of Latin America. Though he hobnobbed with four heads of state, Burg’s thoughts were clearly on the situation back home. It was, after all, just three weeks ago that a spate of suicide bombings left 60 Israelis dead, the nation severely shaken and the peace process between Arabs and Jews hanging in the balance. And on May 29, Israelis go to the polls, in what many consider the most fateful election in the nation’s history.

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Question: How serious is the political and psychological damage Israel has suffered from the recent bombings?

Answer: I don’t think that these bombings caused damage to the national psyche. On the contrary. They expose a kind of strength we didn’t have a decade or two decades ago. Look at Jerusalem. Jerusalem is well-tortured by problems. We had bombings one after the other, each Sunday. Yet Jerusalem was a very constrained, under control city . . . . It reminds me, in a way, of a replay of the Gulf War. The war is not at the front. The war was not territorial. The war was back home, very nearby, and the Israeli classical macho could not defend his family. Then we were all sealed in a national nylon bag. Now we are sealed behind barriers of separation. But at the end of the day, it brings Israelis to the same conclusion: A solution must be found.

Q: Is the solution tougher measures against the Palestinians, like those imposed after the bombings?

A: We have two names for the Lord, our God. The first is the God of Vengeance. And then, when we bury our dead, we pray to the God of Pity. I mean, both instincts, we have them. I want to kill my enemy, but, hey wait a minute. What’s going on here. Let’s see a bigger picture . . . .

Look at the picture from a different point of view. In 1948, we had seven Arab countries fighting us. In 1967, only three of the seven were engaged in the war. In ‘73, only two out of the three. Now, with one of them we have peace; and with Syria, we’re already in the tunnel. There may not be a light yet at the end of it, but something is happening.

Only five years ago, 100% of the Palestinians were against us. Now, 85% of the Palestinians support [peace] with us. The Israeli is not a short memory guy. He’s a Jew. He’s got an Indian elephant memory . . . . Many Israelis today--I won’t say all of them, but many of them--do not want to give a veto power to the remaining 15%.

Q: Are you saying this kind of violence is the price you have to pay for a peace deal with the Palestinians?

A: Let me describe to you two hours of my life last week. I was in Mexico. I visited a Jewish school and I had a meeting with the graduates. For two hours, we spoke about this and that. Then at 1 o’clock, they took the buses back home. One of the girls left the meeting, was kidnapped from the bus, raped and murdered . . . . I was so shocked. I went to my hotel and turned on TV, and CNN gave a report about the killer in Scotland killing 16 [children]. It’s an unbelievable world. Violence is everywhere.

In the last week, I’ve visited four presidents--Mexican, Chilean, Uruguayan and Argentine. I sat with them all. And they are all seeing things through the eyes of the Israelis. It’s not only us vs. them. It’s law and order, the free world against the tidal wave of violence which has many faces--Islamic fundamentalism, the drug barons, urban guerrillas, anarchy. It’s the bad guys vs. the good guys. But one thing has changed which nobody could have expected 25 years ago: Israel is leading the free world with its peace message against the bad guys.

Q: So it is a comforting thought to know you are not alone on the front lines. This has always been true, hasn’t it, especially with Jews from around the world?

A: I don’t want the relationship between myself and my brothers to be based on traumas. Look, I’m married to my wife. I love her. She says she loves me. I don’t know why, but she says she loves me. We have our moments--it happens with every normal couple. We have our moments of love and anxiety and happiness. Every now and then, she turns to me and says, “Avraham, will you take out the garbage?� It’s a normal life. There is no anxiety about it, no happiness about it, no hysteria.

But we’ve developed in the Jewish people a kind of relationship that we express ourselves only when we have a problem. Give me a good crisis; you have a good war for me. They express their love when there are problems. Our real test is normal life. The “take out the garbage� life.

Q: Are you similarly uncomfortable with American empathy? Particularly considering that President Clinton came to Israel twice, once after the Rabin assassination and now after the bombings?

A: Look I love Bill Clinton. He’s the best campaigner since Moses--who was a good campaigner. He was the only leader to visit Israel who gave a Jewish eulogy. He’s a good leader of the Jewish people and a hope to my generation that 40-year-olds can lead the world . . . . And yes, his visit gives reinforcement. It’s better to have a big brother to walk with you down the streets.

Q: But his visits weren’t crucial?

A: No. When you see Bill Clinton here or world leaders gathering to denounce the bombings against us, it is not because of our sufferings, not Israel vs. Hamas--it’s the world against Hamas. The world being led by the Israeli determination to fight them. For 25 years, we had the determination to fight them. Only now the world is listening.

Q: But as you say, Bill Clinton walked the streets. To hear some talk, he could walk away with the Israeli election, if he campaigned there.

A: Yeah, that’s only because I’m not running. But listen. I’m not running for any job. Still, I understand the historical moment.

In the last century, in each and every decade, we had bloodshed here. Each decade had a round. It will take more than a hundred weeks of peace to overcome a hundred years of destruction. That’s the real picture. Yes, I’d love my neighbors to be Swedish--blond, nice and boring. It didn’t happen. I have a different type of people around the neighborhood . . . .

But I’m living in my beloved country. And I have the endurance. . . .

Q: But on May 29, your country will have an election that may decide if others share your view of the historical moment and have your endurance. As a politician, what is your judgment about the outcome?

A: I’ll do my best to persuade my fellow Israelis that we have to decide not according to animosity but to a positive approach. Will they buy it? My feeling is yes. Why? Because for so many years we said the entire world is against us. And all of a sudden, we proved that one thing leads to another--a kind of chain reaction peace process, mass immigration, world support, economic prosperity. Israel is a different country, which was not there only five years ago. And people know this did not come out of nowhere.

People in Israel will be very practical when they go to the ballot box. They will decide on deeds accomplished and deeds that can still be accomplished if we continue on this path.

Q: Does that mean that if the Labor Party loses, this moment in history will be lost?

A: I will say nothing against the opposition. Bibi [Likud Party leader Benjamin “Bibi� Netanyahu] is a good, loyal, faithful Israeli. He is not my candidate.

Look, our problem is that, in Israel, our Clintons are 70 years old. The people here who can come up with creative solutions, people who are not stubborn ideologists, practical people, are the elders of the tribe . . . . Shimon Peres both belongs to the elders of the tribe and is the single most practical guy on the block.

Q: So this is your solid political analysis.

A: OK, call it intuitive. But I think Israelis know the world is changing. No wall in Berlin, no apartheid, negotiations between the IRA and the British government. We see this all. We used to have one TV channel. Now we have a revolution: Another channel, cable, satellites have opened Israel from within.

We were in a ghetto. We loved the ghetto. But now we’re out of the ghetto.

Q: How about those in Israel who still don’t want to look beyond the ghetto? These are people often like yourself, religious, but unlike you, not interested in embracing the outside world. Do you worry about them?

A: I do, I do.

Q: Are you concerned about fundamentalism in Israel?

A: Fundamentalism is a tidal wave all around the world, all around religions. It is kind of a religious answer to the secularization of the world. The more secular the world becomes, the more the fundamentalist side reacts.

Q: And your fundamentalists. . . .

A: There is only one distinction between fundamentalists and this concerns the sanctity of life. If you are an Islamic fundamentalist who worships human life, you are my partner. If you are a Jewish fundamentalist, who is ready to kill for your faith, you are my enemy.

Q: Do you believe that Israeli society will ultimately and nonviolently expunge these elements?

A: Look, here we’re dealing with quicksand. People underestimate, especially people from my camp in the political side in Israel, underestimate the importance, the sanctity of the land for many Israelis. And giving back territories is a spiritual threat to many people. . . .

The major part of Israeli and Jewish history happened at the top of mountains--Judean Hills, Hebron mountains, Samaria: Now we, the first independent Jewish commonwealth in 2,000 years, we are trading it off. We go to the lowlands, which are not part of the immediate history of the Jewish people . . . . We surrender or we give or we compromise the cradle of Jewish history. It’s very strong. It’s even strong for me.

Q: Considering this strong attachment to the land, can you still see a solution?

A: Well, it’s a question of leadership. What do I mean? The easiest thing is to come to the people and just, you know, Mussolini them. Give them big words and give them manifest destiny and everybody’s happy. It’s very difficult to be Churchill. To come to the people and say “God, it is going to be so difficult. Blood, tears and sweat--but it’s worth it.� That’s real leadership . . . .

You have to take people through the problem. You can’t tell them, “Guys, there is no problem.� I was in South Africa 12 years ago. I fought with all the Jews there about apartheid. I have been called pinko, left-winger, humanist, civil rightist. I asked what’s going on out here with this apartheid. Somebody told me, “Avraham, you don’t understand. If there is no solution, there is no problem.� And this is a malicious concept because it deceives people. There is a solution. But you have to pay a price for the solution. That’s leadership.